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Somewhere Between Podcast
Somewhere Between Podcast

Episode 1 · 10 months ago

Episode 34: The Engaged Adoptee - Hannah-Mei, Chinese adoptee & Superwoman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In the second episode of our TEA-series, short for The Engaged Adoptee, Ace is joined by Chinese adoptee, Hannah-Mei Grisley. Hannah-Mei is the founder of ‘Let’s Chat Law’, co-founder of ‘3 Cups of Cha’ and exceptionally involved in the adoptee community by being the co-founder of Subtle Asian Adoptee Traits Europe, an Adoptee Representative for CACH-ALL and the UK Lead for China’s Children International. “Superwoman” has been thrown around a lot whenever her name is mentioned.

You can follow Hannah-Mei on Instagram @hannahmeigriz and check out the adoptee organisations she mentions @cach_all_org, @cci_adoptees, and @saat_europe

*note: this episode was recorded in March 2021

See you guys next time!

We've added music!

Intro: Lights by Sappheiros (https://soundcloud.com/sappheirosmusic)

Outro: herbal tea by Artificial.Music (https://soundcloud.com/artificial-music)

Welcome back to another episode of suwhere between a podcast made by Asian adoptees for Asian adoptees. Hi Everyone, and welcome to the second episode of Our t series, short for the engaged adoptee. In this series we will have discussions with adoptees who are in any kind of way engaged in the adoptee community. I'M ACE and today I'm joined by Hannah May Grizzly. Hanname is the founder of let's Chat Law, cofounder of three cups of chat and exceptionally involved in the adoptee community by being the cofounder of Subtle Asian adoptee traits Europe and adoptee representative for catch all and the UK lead for China's children. International superwoman has been thrown around a lot whenever your name is mentioned. Welcome, Honam. Thank you very much for having me so just to introduce myself. My name is Hannah A. I was born in Guandom province in nine hundred and ninety six, and then I was adopted in one thous nine hundred and ninety seven by some British parents and I've grown up in the UK, near London ever since. So, because of covid nineteen, I've actually been living back with my parents, which has been really fun and entertaining during the pandemic. But actually I've been very grateful to be able to move back with them and right now I just finish my legal studies and then I'll start my job as a training lawyer in autumn of this year. That's awesome. You've been doing a lot of things. Thank you for that introduction. So, if I understand correctly, you just recently started to reclaim your birth name. Please tell us more about that. Yes, so I had to really remind myself to introduce myself as Hannah May, but this is something that I made the recent decision or the active decision to do. Since school, you know, Primary School, Secondary School, even university, I've always induced myself as Hannah, just because it's shorter and also, I guess, because it avoids the complications of having to explain adoption and why I got a double bar name, where they...

...may come from, etc. But I realized that in the world of work, you know, it would be nice to go by my full name and also in some ways it does opposite and it actually kind of flags out the fact that I'm actually an Asian woman, because my name, Hanna Grizzly, wouldn't give any indications as such. So, yeah, it's also just part of, I think, my journey as an adoptee, kind of just trying to reclaim my identity as an adoptee and also as an Asian person, because I think that's something I'm only really coming to grips with in like the last year or so. Yeah, I think that makes sense a lot and also, as you mentioned, to kind of flag that you're an Asian person as well, because I recently started to reclaim my birth name as well. But obviously ace is maybe not as Asian sounding, so it doesn't make the same impact in their way, unfortunately. But yeah, that's cool. So, as I mentioned at the top, you're quite engaging the adoptive community. So how long have you been engaged in the community? So I've been a member of Catchual, which is the UK. It was originally Chinese but now it's into country adoptee organization which supports families and adoptees who were originally adopted from China but now, you know, everywhere internationally. So yeah, that I've been my family have been a members since I was younger, but it wasn't until, I guess, I got to university at the age of eighteen that I really started getting more involved with catch all and then, as a result, I've got involved with CCI, chared as children international and now sat Europe. And, as I think I've I've mentioned in past conversations with Ace, I don't think I've actually really started kind of reclaiming my identity and actually engaging as an adoptee in the adoptee community as opposed to just just a volunteer. You know, and by that I mean actually, you know, having and holding like adoptee spaces so that people can talk about adoption, if that makes sense. That's only really been in the last year or so. Yeah, I think what you're doing is really admirable and it's really important. I think also, like especially, feels like there's there has been a lot of things that...

...has been started up like just recently, like also this one cares, for example, in the past year or so. And Yeah, I think we're really starting to find that there is a community of adoptees out there and it's really helpful that we have more people who are engaged and trying to get the word out there in that sense. So actually, how did you find out about the CCI, for example? So, as I saying, I actually only recently got involved. I actually be came a CCI sum it intern. I think it was in the summer of two thousand and nineteen. But before that I graduated university in two thousand and eighteen and then I actually went off to live in Hong Kong for a year and through that I made two really good friends, shouts to lily and jade, if that listening, in Hong Kong, and we met through the CCI facebook group. But I'd only found that out because I realized that yet that I actually wants to get more involved with captual. So I'd gone onto the Internet, on to facebook and, you know, try to find some adoptee related groups, and that's how I found CCI and obviously they have a really amazing community there. And then when I decided to leave Hong Kong move back to the UK, I knew I wanted to do something in the summer because I like being busy, and I applied to volunteer as a CCI intern and one of my projects was to set up the CCI UK chaps up because it wasn't originally an American organization and I realized that there are a lot of Chinese adoptees who might have fallen outside of the Catsule, which is the UK into country adoptee organization. It might have fallen out of the capture kind of, don't say net but you know, umbrella, let's say, and that they might, you know, want to get more involved in more like young adult or adult activities instead of the more family focused events that capture runs. Was that makes sense? Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Yes, if that's very interesting. So actually, could you tell us more like it? What does that entail exactly? So originally the summer in township was just for three months in the summer and I actually like a buddy or supervised by one of the CCI CO founder,...

Charlotte, who is so lovely and amazing and she's done so much for the Chinese adoctor and into country adoptee community in general. So we work together to kind of sell up the first mewtops, which was in London, in London's Chinatown, which is really cool. I think there were seven adoptees who joined us, which is really really lovely. We had dinner and then I think we went to a bar because all of us wave eighteen. And Yeah, it was just really lovely to meet some adoptees who I've never met before and kind of grow the network. And then from then on we did a movie at Quafinis. Movie called the farewell came out, so you went to see that together, and then we also went ice skating and then finally, we celebrated lum in a year in January, two and twenty, and then I had some amazing more plans and projects and ideas, but obviously covid nineteen got in the way of that. But it's been yeah, I've really enjoyed working the CCI and also it's been great trying to, you know, bridge the gaps, let's say, between cattle and CCI, as they kind of paid towards different kinds of adoptees or members of the adoptee community. So I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, that's really that's really cool. I think also like being in several organizations like that, you can really weave a net like in between both of them in a good way. So, oh, I also really just wanted to say like a sign of but if anyone hasn't seen the farewell yet, it's a definitely recommend. That's that's a great movie. It's a real team a tricker. Yeah, you mentioned that you had been in Hong Kong and also like doing some research before this. I've seen that you've been on exchange as well in China. Is that correct? Yeah, so I studied French Mandarin and business at university in Birmingham in the UK and as part of my degree I got to go on a year abroad and I chose to go spend most of my time in China and I was able to study acting High University in Beijing. I especially wanted to go to Beijing because, yes, it has terrible pollution, although that's getting better, I hear, but also it's has so much culture and a rich history that was definitely so much fun to explore. Yeah, during my weekends off and also as a great night life. So yeah, I got to do that. And then...

...when I was out there, I also decided to push myself out my comfort zone and do some solo traveling and I think I got to about thirty odd states, or, sorry, provinces in China, some with friends, some by myself. And Yeah, I developed like a weird love for the Chinese sleeper trains, which are an experience. That's say, Oh, I feel like you. You should collaborate on there. Yeah, so, see, for trains are a lot of fun. So you have like different types of trains. There's an incredible high speed Brown network in China. So you have slow trains and normal trains and fast trains. So the high speed trains can get you, for example, from Beijing to Shanghai in, I think, four hours and I can't remember how many miles day is, but it's very far. You look at it on the map, it's so impressive it's almost you know, I think it's the same splying, except Chinese domestic flights are known to, you know, experienced delays all the time. So that's why everyone takes the train. But the slower trains and the normal trains, some of them have super carriages. So if your fancy, you can take the first class carriages, which are four people and in a room. If you're with friends, obviously it's really nice. You know, you're all in the road together, there's no smoking or whatever. But if you want to travel second class, which is what most people do. You're in a carriage, a big carriage of lots of beds, so there's three beds per row and so you can have the bottom bunk, which you can sit up in, and then the middle and then the top bunk. I actually preferred going in the top bunk because I'm very short, so I could actually sit up at the top of the bunk and then you weren't as disturbed as the bottom rows and also could people just sat in your bed if you're on the bottom row. It was actually quite fun kind of just watching everyone from from the heavens as they go out their business. And Yeah, the train to conductor calms, the drinks and the food, the trolleys come round and try and sell you lots of different things and obviously you have to get along with your neighbors and chat with them and things like that. So I kind of like the anonymity of being an Asian adoptee because, even though I can speak Chinese that...

...well, I could, you know, kind of experience it authentically, whereas when I was with my friends it was actually really funny because they'd be stared at, have those questions things like that. So, yeah, it was entertaining and I think the longest one I did was twenty eight hours. So it was two nights and one day from Beijing to chund with a friend, luckily, so that was actually really fun. Yeah, and we made friends with a family in like our in our row, which was really nice, and they had some heat kids and they I don't think they'd ever seen a Westerner. My friend was from the UK, so they never seen the western before. Yeah, and it was slightly habited feverish, but twenty eight hours was just enough to say, you know, okay, I did this really cool amount of time, obviously the train, but not enough to go crazy. I don't know how I would handle twenty eight hours on one train, but I've been on a bus for like twenty twenty hours once, so I guess the sleep, I think bus is really worse. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you get I would get costick. I would survive. Yeah, but that's really Ah, I've always wanted to, maybe not always, but I've wanted to go to China as well, and I guess everyone is really wanting to to travel these days. But yeah, actually, I also wanted to ask, since you came for change in China, and you're also adopted from from China. was that intentional to to go there or what's it just something that happened? Yeah, it was intentional in a way, but it's actually because when you get to seventeen in UK you have to start applying for universities and I'd originally wanted to study English literature, but my English literature teachers didn't like me and it really put me in the subject and also I didn't like, you know it. I actually really lost the love of reading during my a levels. So I decided I wasn't going to do that. And I'd studied Chinese as an after school club throughout my secondary school time. So it just felt natural just to do something like languages. When I was seventeen, eighteen, I was really ready to move out and go, you know, explore and find myself in this world. There's eighteen class worlds, especially because I was an August birthday, so, you know, I was always the baby. So it just felt like a natural choice to do French,...

...at Chinese and business, because I had no idea why I wanted to do in life and I just thought this gives me, you know, an international aspect, it gives me some business and commerciality, which I hope you made me employable and also just allow me to travel, because I actually was so convinced at one point I was going to take a gap ye and go live in South America. Didn't happen, unfortunately, but my dad convinced me. He was like do you're abroad, he'll enjoy it and you're still get to travel. I still worked really hard. I try to remind him often. It wasn't the same as a gap year where I was just traveling down the fun I did have to study, I did get some internships, but I did also get to travel. So yeah, it was quite intentional and yeah, I'm very glad I did not study English literature. No offense to any English bit grabs. Sorry. Yeah, so while you were in China, do you do any birth family surge or they do go to visit the or finage? You were born in it? Yeah, so I my parents came to visit me at Christmas time in Beijing first time and it was in the worst week of worst week of the year, polution, so I felt really bad. And then they actually got like a one year visa so they were going to come back in the summer. But I actually have a brother who is my parents birth child and he's younger than me. So at the time he was about seventeen but he looked like twenty and I was, I think, twenty and I looked about seventeen. Stills it's very annoying and we frequently get mistaken for me boyfriend and girlfriend, much to my embarrassment. So I decided that actually my parents were uninvited to China and I wanted to take my brother on it, like a sibling bonding trip. So after having traveled during the Spring Festival break in Tempruary by myself and had such a great time traveling like more authentically in hostels and meeting lots of different people, I decided I would take my brother on, you know, his first ever backpacking trip, and also it was very helpful because he was able to carry all my bags because it was at the end of my year abroad. So we traveled from Beijing down to Shanghai. No, actually, sorry, I met him in Shanghai and then we traveled through South China to Hung Joe and we also went...

...to my ofphanage, which is in Guangdong Province. And so, yeah, I got to take him on all the horrible trains, so he got a really authentic experience, which was quite funny. And Yeah, everyone thought we were girlfriend and boyfriend and then when they were as we weren't, they were like, oh, he's very handsome and I was like, well, still, my brother still gross. So yeah, we went together, which was really nice. I don't think I would have wanted to have gone back by myself. Yeah, and it was. It was a very strange experience because the only other time I'd gone back to my ophanage was when I was ten, in two thousand and seven, and so I was just too young to really I appreciated my parents taking me, of course, but I was too young to really kind of register what was happening or what I should be feeling as an adoptee, whereas this time around I actually could really process it. And Yeah, it was quite sad. It was a completely different place from where I was adopted from, but the same place that I've been to visit in two thousand and seven. Then not much have changed and unfortunately most of the babies that were in the orphanage had learning difficulties or disciplity, tears and things like that and so waiting for foreign adoption, but obviously I think that Chinese government had tried to restrict that. So it was quite it was quite sad. But having the mandarin skills actually made me able to communicate better with the orphanage, I guess, managers and Care Workers, and I we actually made friends with some of the the care workers that work in there and looking after the kids and they actually took us out for dinner and I think it broke down more barriers and it gave me like a very different insight into my orphanage. Then if my parents had gone, because I think they would have tried to roll out the bread carpet a bit more, whereas because it was just me and my brother and we weren't, you know, as important, or we weren't, you know, as like senior, I think they would kind of let their god down a little bit more, and so they were a bit more relaxed and friendly, which was pretty lovely. Do got to take we taken out for dinner. I'm not, unfortunately's done touch with them, but you know, it was just a very different experience and it kind of it kind of humanized the whole process and maybe for like appreciate that. You know, obviously you hear some really tragic stories about orphanages, but you know, these people here actually did really care about the kids, so that...

...was nice. Yeah, I think must have been a maybe eye opening or like at least a very powerful like experience to also be able to as as you said, like when you were at ten, you probably couldn't like communicate with them and now you could. It's very nice to have done that with with your brother as well. Did you ever, like, have you ever talked about adoption in general, since he's your parents biological child? Every talk about that? Yeah, so actually I remember the other reason why he came out was because he was doing an Epq, which is an extended project that you do at the age of sixteen to eighteen in the UK. So he was actually going to do his about adoption and Chinese adoption, because he's studied China and geography of history and obviously meeting his sister I was very useful for finding people to interview about this subject. So we did have some talks about that and it was interesting because he came at it from an academic perspective and, you know, was able to bring quite a balance view and so yeah, we did have chats, you know, about the fact that I came first and he was actually a miracle baby because my parents had actually tried IVF before and I haven't been successful and then they actually chose to adopt. They because did it before, but they'd obviously wanted to try IBF. But yeah, we have been able to have conversations about it. I think they've kind of they fizzled out a little bit after that because that was, you know, almost four years ago now. But since my involvement with catch all has become more active and I've kind of done a bit more speaking, I think he's listened to some of the talks and he's actually, yeah, being more you know, asked a lot more questions things like that, which has been really nice because he I didn't think he's ever really seen me as Chinese or like as adopted, like he's just seen me as a sister and in fact there's a really funny story that I always tell. When we were younger, he was really upset and really jealous that I had an adoption day and I got a present and my parents used to like make me a cake and try...

...and make every positive thing, which is obviously lovely. So he used to go around going I want to be Chinese because obviously he thought Chinese would just got free cake or something, and so we actually had to rename my adoption day family day, and my brother had to get a present and then we both got a cake and I was so annoyed. I was like a cake, he's not adopted. So, yeah, the presidents of stop since you both reached eighteen, sadly. So he's not, as you know, needy in that sense. But yeah, he we've never really like, I've never really felt there's that distinction, which is which is really nice. Obviously, it does bring some of its own issues because sometimes he's like Oh yeah, Oh, yeah, you are Chinese and he kind of forgets that. Yeah, that's that's funny, with the cake and everything. And yes, I think it's said once you hit a certain age you don't get cake anymore. Do you've maybe don't get presents. Yeah, it's so basically you come back then to to Europe and you you're more engaged in their adopted community. So that kind of also leads you into cofounding settle Asian adopted traits. Europe can you tell us more about that? Yeah, so I think the original global group called Settle Asian adopted traits back and maybe I think it was late, maybe two thousand and nineteen or late two thousand and eighteen, I believe. So it's actually quite old. But I didn't find out about it until not later when I moved back from Hong Kong. And it's the same issue, not issue, but the day. Any thing I realized with CCI the US kind of chapters, which is where, you know, there's a massive Asian adoptee population in the US, you know, as a result of the Korean War and obviously one child policy and things like that. The only means war as well. So it makes a lot of sense that a lot of these organizations which have been, you know, created by adoptees, you know, are are in the US. But I've realized, especially through my involvement with cats all, that I think the conversations that European and UK based Asian adoptees...

...is actually very different to the ones that maybe American Asian American adoptees are having. So I think part of the reason why I wanted to start a CCI UK chapter or and island even and also a subtle Asian adoptee traits Europe chapter is because I just felt we needed more space for adoptees in Europe. But I just think we're having different conversations but also maybe at different stages in our lives and in our adoptee journeys and also, obviously, you know, Europe has lots of different countries of cultures, but I think in some ways we still have some similarities. You know it in yeah, and in our conversations and things like that, which is is different to the US. So I think I spoke to Anna and I tended one of her zoom calls in last year and I was like, Oh, I'd really like to origin. I wanted to start a CCI Europe chapter, but then I thought actually sat Europe would be a better option because I didn't know how many European Asian adoptees there were and I didn't know how many Chinese adoptees there were. So I thought that it would be yeah, it'd be better to have more open group. Say, I hope that was a question. Yeah, I know it totally does. So so, yeah, I think it really does make sense because also, like, as you mentioned, like there's a lot of different countries, but we do have, or at least I, as a European, I feel also very strongly that there is something that is connecting everyone together in Europe. And also I think it's important, as you mentioned, to see and also like highlight that the discussions and what's happening in the US is different from what's happening in Europe as well. So I think definitely that it is a very good thing that sat Europe has been started. I not only saying that because I'm also what happened covers, but yeah, I think it's important to have something like that and I think we're both really excited about growing their community even more and everything's going to happen going forward. So now we kind of established that you're engaged in like three different adoptee organizations and you also have several law projects that you have going on and yes, you have a very...

...business schedule. So, like I'll do, you keep everything organized. I think my phone. If we didn't have smart phones, I think I'd be very lost, but Google calendar is honestly my answer to everything. You know, Google calendar, Google drive. Actually, people take the Mac out of me from catch all, not saying their names. Don't a name and shame, but they laugh at my use of Google drive. So, but honestly, I think it's a life stay. But I know we use it for sat we use it a catule. I use at the CCI as well, and it's just such a great tool just hear everything in one place. That's yeah, that's that's how I survive and also sometimes less sleep, less sleep. That's yeah, it's not a sustainable one. Right now, I can kind of get away with it right now because I'm still a student, but yeah, it won't work. But also, I think, also the thing with, I think, all three organizations is actually I'm a very structure logical person. So I actually like to build structures and place and, like, you know, set up structures and and organizations within the organizations themselves. That you mean that even if, you know, I had to step back or even if I had to quit or leave or whatever, these projects and events and meet UPS would still be able to continue without me. So for captual we've actually stood and in terms program so that's really cool and you know, maybe I probably won't manage it forever, I'm enjoying doing it the right now, but it's just a great way to get new ideas and your adopt. He's engaged with Captul and see the value in it as well. But yeah, I've set it up so that you know, it could continue running, you know, after I'm gone. It sounds like sounds really morbid, but you know what I mean. I think Google drive also comes in handy for that. Yeah, definitely, I totally see what you mean as well, because I think it is important when starting things like this, and also this's is something that you've mentioned in talk we've had before, is that if you want something to be a long term thing, I think it's very important, as you're saying, to kind of get these workflows or whatever to call it, in place and all the gay Ad Lens on how what to do things,...

...because then, as you say, also, if people move away, then like the spirit or the organization or community can still move on, because it's more than I mean, I would say or stations like that are the people, but it's also more than the people. So it needs to I kind of balance also on these tools, especially since I guess that you also work with people who are not necessarily physically close to you. It helps to have all these tools online to manage everything. And I also wanted to ask something because being part of so many organization, I guess you meet a lot of people. So would you call yourself extroverted person or are you more of an introverted person? I feel like it would be an extroverted person who does a lot of things where there's a lot of people involved all the time. So I actually did the Myers break test. I think you've probably heard of it, the sixteen personalities test. I did it when I was in Hong Kong in two thousand and eighteen and then I did it again last year in two th thousand and twenty, just halfway through look down, and it's really interesting because I changed a lot and I'd actually gone from extroverted in two thousand and eighteen also to introverted over looked down, which I think is probably you know a lot of people have actually felt that move, that shifted in their personality because you just not exposed to it so much, but I've always been. I think I shifted like two percent. So originally I was fifty one percent. So then ridiculous like fifty one cent extroverted and then forty nine percent interverted and now I've moved the other way, so I'm forty nine percent actually about it and then now fifty one percent introvited. So I would say I'm cleaning the type of amber, I think, because I love people and I love going to like parties and socializing, but at the same time, you know, sometimes I just need to lie down in a cold doc room with no one and just like my dog and my cat and just like, you know, just chill without humans. So I'm definitely a bit of both. I think that's kind of a good balance hipy. Yeah, no, I think so too. And because also in the reason why I wanted to ask as well is because you mentioned that you don't sleep a lot, and then...

I'm like, oh, but maybe if you got obviously not an expert on like introversion or extra version, but just maybe, then, if you're very introverted and then you're doing all this interacting with a lot of people, then maybe you would need more time to like recuperate and rest and everything, but then it seems like you're not really doing that. So just yeah, so just making sure that. Yeah, and yeah, it varies. You know. I say this. I was saying like, Oh, I did see them much. My Dad would probably, if you ever listened to this, will be like I did think this is true. Be Like, I think that's a lie. So I think, yeah, he would, he would carry that that statement. But Yeah, sorry, yeah, no worries at all. So actually, also one thing that I think, especially for myself, because I would say that I've definitely I think I'm more on the extroverted scale. So also, one of the reasons why I wanted to start this is also because I really enjoy needing new people and getting to getting to know New People and hear their stories and also, like now here, share their stories and elevate their stories as well. Yeah, and obviously, as you said, I it's a great opputy to meet me people here, different experiences and opinions, because I always enjoy learning and having like a discussion orbit. So it's a great way. Yeah, it's a great way for me to learn, meet people and just, yeah, give back. So yeah, yeah, because I as to mention, I think creating connections is not necessarily only in the adoptee community, but I think in general it is something that we as human beings. It's something that we want and that we need as well. So it's a very admirable thing of you to do for the Adopti community. So thank you, thank you very much for that, and I feel like I could talk to you for a very long time, but I think we're going to move on to the rapid fire questions that we have. So let's start out with the first one, filling the blank. Being an adoptee is interesting. That's a very cheese answer, but I'm going to do...

...with it. Name one thing you can do to be active or engaged in the adoptee community? Just be active online. I think that's the main one. Right now we're in covid so yeah, just be active online and reach out to people. So, as a very busy person, what's the first thing you do in the morning? Exercise, all, brush UPOS and brush my t exis if I can't, even if it's just ten minutes the ago. Oh Yo, guys, Nice. I like that as well. What's your favorite dish from your culture? There are so many dishes that I love. Wait, is this Chinese culture, like my adoption adoptive culture, or my like birth country culture? What do you consider your culture? Deep? I guess I think I'm going to go with Chinese culture like which I think is is my culture as well. I think you know I can. I can have Chinese British culture, Asian British culture. So my favorite dish of all time has to be gen being. I love it. It is a saving pancake which has a Christy cracker inside and then it has an egg on the outside and cinscallions and some seasoning. And I am a Vegan, but this is the only dish. Okay, apart from part Thai, this is the only dish that I would break my veganism for because it's so yummy. And they usually like fifty P or fifty cents in China, but in UK it's like five pounds, which is a ripoff, but I'll pay that much for it. That sounds really good. I haven't tried that. I hope I can do that some day. Definitely. There are some good places in London. I'll check it out next time I'm there. Hopefully it's not too far away. What's the book that you really love? Oh, this is a really hard button, I think. Can I say too? I think the one that really stood out to me when I was younger was called Chinese Cinderella by Adeline End Mar. She's not the isn't the character of the book, isn't adopted, but she is an unwanted daughter in a Hong Kong family and I think it was very fictionalized from her actual autobiography, which is like a very different story, but it is really it really did to me when...

I was younger because it kind of had that fantasy elements to it as well. Of you know, it was also, I don't want to spoil anything, but it was also it became like a spy, like a World War Two thriller as well. And I think as an adoptee when I was younger, even though I've just didn't necessarily, you know, want to talk about adoption, may be when I was ten, it was just a great way for me to kind of find a character in a book that I felt kind of represented me and related to me. And then another fiction book is the Legend Series by Mary you. She's an Asian American author, and again it's just one of those books where you just find representative characters and then this means a lot and it's a great book as well. So I definitely recommend, if you like some young adult there's tooken fiction. Yeah, I have to check that out. And then, finally, what advised would you like to give to junk adoptees? I think it's get out of your comfort zone for anything and everything, adoption and non adoption stuff. I think it took me a long time to gain the confidence to step out of my comfort zone and obviously I'm still, you know, there. I'm still trying to do that now, to just challenge myself. But I think you know, whether it's challenging yourself by, you know, talking for your parents about adoption, or whether it's, you know, going to travel solo or learning new language or moved to new country or even just, you know, go to that party that you don't really want to go see. You know, you never know what could happen if you do try that, you think, and I think that was always that that I was scared of. I was always scared of failure and I think I've just had to learn to live with that. Awesome yeahend I, I think. I think that's a very, very good advice. I'm trying to do that as much as possible as well. I even have a poster over there that says life begins at the end of your comfort zone and I think that's very true. Yeah, definitely, so thank you. Thank you so much. How to make for joining today before we leave, do you have any place where we can connect with all the organizations that you're active in? Yeah, so, Gosh, it's quite a long list. So I let's start with setle Asians what to trade to Europe. We...

...are on facebook as a facebook group. You just type in the name, so I'll Asian adopted trakes Europe. You can find us that. I'm also on Instagram at sat under school Europe. CCI, or Chinese student in factional, is on Instagram as well at CCI underschool adoptees, and there's lots of facebook groups for wherever you are in the world. And with catch all, will also on facebook as a facebook page, facebook group, and we also have public instagram, which is at catch under school all on the school org, which is a bit about Maul. But yeah, definitely check all of those organizations out because they do amazing work. Awesome will do again. Thank you very much. How I made for joining today, and thank you to all the listeners for joining us today as well. If you're interested in participating in our t series or want to be part of our regular episodes, email us at somewhere dot between dot podcast at gmailcom. And don't forget to join our instagram family at somewhere between, DOC FAM to stay connected it with updates, casting calls and more. See guys next tie and stay engaged.

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